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	<title>Comments on: A free holiday&#8230; or a job with no salary?</title>
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	<link>http://www.travelblather.com/2009/12/a-free-holiday-or-a-job-with-no-salary.html</link>
	<description>Banter between travel writers, travel PRs and travel social media people</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Mon, 06 Feb 2012 08:59:53 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: How to find travel bloggers: tourism outreach online &#124; Sheila&#039;s Guide To The Good Stuff</title>
		<link>http://www.travelblather.com/2009/12/a-free-holiday-or-a-job-with-no-salary.html/comment-page-1#comment-4277</link>
		<dc:creator>How to find travel bloggers: tourism outreach online &#124; Sheila&#039;s Guide To The Good Stuff</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Jan 2012 18:23:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.travelblather.com/2009/12/a-free-holiday-or-a-job-with-no-salary.html#comment-4277</guid>
		<description>[...] Dec09:  If you&#8217;re mostly looking for amateurs &#8211; like this Latin America/Spain travel company that is thinking of offering free holidays to bloggers ... &#8211; the BootsnAll Travel Network has lots of bloggers around the world. Disclosure: Boots has [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Dec09:  If you&#8217;re mostly looking for amateurs &#8211; like this Latin America/Spain travel company that is thinking of offering free holidays to bloggers ... &#8211; the BootsnAll Travel Network has lots of bloggers around the world. Disclosure: Boots has [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Jeremy Head</title>
		<link>http://www.travelblather.com/2009/12/a-free-holiday-or-a-job-with-no-salary.html/comment-page-1#comment-179</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeremy Head</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Dec 2009 15:21:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.travelblather.com/2009/12/a-free-holiday-or-a-job-with-no-salary.html#comment-179</guid>
		<description>Thanks Tom... you nailed my writing style beautifully ;-)
I agree... I&#039;d hoped more people reading this would be offering their services and discussing how to make the idea work for both parties.
Clearly they either don&#039;t read this blog or else they got frightened off. Shame indeed that the most commented post ever on my blog became a bit of a slanging match.
Perhaps you will get more luck with comments on the Pura Aventura blog... anyone reading this who would like to take Tom up on his offer please follow the link:
&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.pura-aventura.com/blog/2009/12/10/free-holidays-for-travelbloggers/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://www.pura-aventura.com/blog/2009/12/10/free-holidays-for-travelbloggers/&lt;/a&gt;

Comments are now closed.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Tom... you nailed my writing style beautifully <img src='http://www.travelblather.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';-)' class='wp-smiley' /><br />
I agree... I'd hoped more people reading this would be offering their services and discussing how to make the idea work for both parties.<br />
Clearly they either don't read this blog or else they got frightened off. Shame indeed that the most commented post ever on my blog became a bit of a slanging match.<br />
Perhaps you will get more luck with comments on the Pura Aventura blog... anyone reading this who would like to take Tom up on his offer please follow the link:<br />
<a href="http://www.pura-aventura.com/blog/2009/12/10/free-holidays-for-travelbloggers/" rel="nofollow">http://www.pura-aventura.com/blog/2009/12/10/free-holidays-for-travelbloggers/</a></p>
<p>Comments are now closed.</p>
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		<title>By: Thomas Power</title>
		<link>http://www.travelblather.com/2009/12/a-free-holiday-or-a-job-with-no-salary.html/comment-page-1#comment-178</link>
		<dc:creator>Thomas Power</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Dec 2009 12:42:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.travelblather.com/2009/12/a-free-holiday-or-a-job-with-no-salary.html#comment-178</guid>
		<description>And once more unto the breach...

There&#039;s a ton to reply to in here and some good tips.

Firstly, my somewhat random distinction between &#039;blogger&#039; and &#039;professional travel writer&#039;. Any confusion will be my sloppy distinctions/definitions. For the purposes of this discussion, I have assumed a blogger as an amateur and a travel writer as someone whose income is derived from their writing, be that online or offline or on a blog. I see the confusion caused. Let&#039;s call them Pros and Amateurs (n.b. amateur not to be taken in a pejorative sense!), the media matters not.

I think it&#039;s obvious that the original proposal is only likely to work for someone for whom travel writing is not their primary source of income so it&#039;s about the amateurs.

There are clearly many pros out there for whom the idea does not work, I didn&#039;t expect it to. For the pros out there, do you take fundamental issue with an offer pitched exclusively/primarily to your amateur cohorts?


This brings me on to the &#039;amateurs&#039;...

I don&#039;t picture dragging anyone anywhere. This isn&#039;t a press trip being shipped around to look at hotels with a bloody PR telling you what to look at and what to like. It&#039;s a proper walking holiday in Chile (continuing with this example) with regular clients.

It would not be free for us to host this trip. It would be a cash expense in the order of £2,000

Let me be clear about my thinking to hopefully dispel any sense that this comes from an exploitative place:

1) There are lots of amateur writers out there with an audience.
2) We want to reach that audience in an effective and cost-effective way.
3) Some of those writers might really like our holidays.
4) Mix it together and we invest in providing a free holiday place (nearly free/not free/free depending on your point of view), writer invests time in writing posts.

I must admit that I&#039;m a bit surprised by the overall direction of the posts. There seems to be a sensitivity to the idea of bloggers being treated as free pr. I get that. I&#039;ve read the posts elsewhere, I should have seen it coming. In this case I think it&#039;s well wide of the mark.

My thinking is that we put in an investment of X (£) in return for an output of Y (words). Of course it&#039;s down to the writer to decide whether they are willing to sell Y for £X.

I would have expected the postings to focus far more on the editorial control/prescriptive side. To be fair I think answers to that part of my original post have been predictably certain: editorial control just isn&#039;t something we can or should ask for.

What I do think is at the troubled heart of the proposition is touched on by both Pam and Darren - reputation.

You are a blogger. You have spent time, effort and money to build your reputation as impartial comentators in the travel sphere. Let&#039;s say Darren accepts that there is a genuine and acceptable exchange going on here, that Pam and I negotiate the number of posts to be written. We&#039;re left with just one issue - where to put the posts.

From our point of view, the whole point of the exercise is to have links come in from external blogs. Sending someone on holiday to write content for our own site is a completely different proposition. We want the content and the links to be on your blog. However, in hosting and being seen to host content derived from a freebie, how does that sit with your readership?

I know that if I went onto TravelBlather one day and read a post from Jeremy saying &quot;So as the sun goes down on another perfect day in the Atacama desert I thank my lucky southern hemisphere stars for PURA AVENTURA&#039;S WALKING HOLIDAY IN CHILE....etc&quot; (Jeremy: think I nailed your style there?) I might read on just to find out what he&#039;s been drinking but frankly it would be patently obvious what was going on and it would be a massive turn-off.

There must be blogs out there which are more in line with a travelogue style. Of course the ones we, as travel companies, would most like to be on are the more off the cuff, editorially opinionated ones.

You still there as I argue myself into a corner?

I guess we simply can&#039;t define who might and might not say yes. It&#039;s clear as day that we can&#039;t expect to make our way onto our &quot;A-list&quot; blogs (the ones we ourselves follow) because by their very nature, they can&#039;t and should not be compromised.

To conclude. We broadcast the offer, some people may be interested. Between company and writer, we decide whether the £X and the Ywords balance and off we go.

How do I broadcast this offer without causing mortal offence to those of you who are inclined to read the &#039;offer&#039; as &#039;taking the p**s&#039;? Does anything I say above reset people&#039;s opinions as to the motivations behind the request?

And, as a parting shot, there&#039;s a sub-text in many of the posts. Big travel company vs. small writer.

Take Pura, we&#039;re a small travel company. I&#039;m not going to turn this into an advert for us but we really do care what we do. We&#039;re proud of doing stuff better than anyone else. The core values of my work are surely no different to those of the dedicated travel writer (pro or amateur).

So why the conflictual tone? Battle weariness after years of hosted trips by the big boys/girls of travel? Are we to pretend that small travel company vs. big travel writer doesn&#039;t exist as a possibility?
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And once more unto the breach...</p>
<p>There's a ton to reply to in here and some good tips.</p>
<p>Firstly, my somewhat random distinction between 'blogger' and 'professional travel writer'. Any confusion will be my sloppy distinctions/definitions. For the purposes of this discussion, I have assumed a blogger as an amateur and a travel writer as someone whose income is derived from their writing, be that online or offline or on a blog. I see the confusion caused. Let's call them Pros and Amateurs (n.b. amateur not to be taken in a pejorative sense!), the media matters not.</p>
<p>I think it's obvious that the original proposal is only likely to work for someone for whom travel writing is not their primary source of income so it's about the amateurs.</p>
<p>There are clearly many pros out there for whom the idea does not work, I didn't expect it to. For the pros out there, do you take fundamental issue with an offer pitched exclusively/primarily to your amateur cohorts?</p>
<p>This brings me on to the 'amateurs'...</p>
<p>I don't picture dragging anyone anywhere. This isn't a press trip being shipped around to look at hotels with a bloody PR telling you what to look at and what to like. It's a proper walking holiday in Chile (continuing with this example) with regular clients.</p>
<p>It would not be free for us to host this trip. It would be a cash expense in the order of £2,000</p>
<p>Let me be clear about my thinking to hopefully dispel any sense that this comes from an exploitative place:</p>
<p>1) There are lots of amateur writers out there with an audience.<br />
2) We want to reach that audience in an effective and cost-effective way.<br />
3) Some of those writers might really like our holidays.<br />
4) Mix it together and we invest in providing a free holiday place (nearly free/not free/free depending on your point of view), writer invests time in writing posts.</p>
<p>I must admit that I'm a bit surprised by the overall direction of the posts. There seems to be a sensitivity to the idea of bloggers being treated as free pr. I get that. I've read the posts elsewhere, I should have seen it coming. In this case I think it's well wide of the mark.</p>
<p>My thinking is that we put in an investment of X (£) in return for an output of Y (words). Of course it's down to the writer to decide whether they are willing to sell Y for £X.</p>
<p>I would have expected the postings to focus far more on the editorial control/prescriptive side. To be fair I think answers to that part of my original post have been predictably certain: editorial control just isn't something we can or should ask for.</p>
<p>What I do think is at the troubled heart of the proposition is touched on by both Pam and Darren - reputation.</p>
<p>You are a blogger. You have spent time, effort and money to build your reputation as impartial comentators in the travel sphere. Let's say Darren accepts that there is a genuine and acceptable exchange going on here, that Pam and I negotiate the number of posts to be written. We're left with just one issue - where to put the posts.</p>
<p>From our point of view, the whole point of the exercise is to have links come in from external blogs. Sending someone on holiday to write content for our own site is a completely different proposition. We want the content and the links to be on your blog. However, in hosting and being seen to host content derived from a freebie, how does that sit with your readership?</p>
<p>I know that if I went onto TravelBlather one day and read a post from Jeremy saying "So as the sun goes down on another perfect day in the Atacama desert I thank my lucky southern hemisphere stars for PURA AVENTURA'S WALKING HOLIDAY IN CHILE....etc" (Jeremy: think I nailed your style there?) I might read on just to find out what he's been drinking but frankly it would be patently obvious what was going on and it would be a massive turn-off.</p>
<p>There must be blogs out there which are more in line with a travelogue style. Of course the ones we, as travel companies, would most like to be on are the more off the cuff, editorially opinionated ones.</p>
<p>You still there as I argue myself into a corner?</p>
<p>I guess we simply can't define who might and might not say yes. It's clear as day that we can't expect to make our way onto our "A-list" blogs (the ones we ourselves follow) because by their very nature, they can't and should not be compromised.</p>
<p>To conclude. We broadcast the offer, some people may be interested. Between company and writer, we decide whether the £X and the Ywords balance and off we go.</p>
<p>How do I broadcast this offer without causing mortal offence to those of you who are inclined to read the 'offer' as 'taking the p**s'? Does anything I say above reset people's opinions as to the motivations behind the request?</p>
<p>And, as a parting shot, there's a sub-text in many of the posts. Big travel company vs. small writer.</p>
<p>Take Pura, we're a small travel company. I'm not going to turn this into an advert for us but we really do care what we do. We're proud of doing stuff better than anyone else. The core values of my work are surely no different to those of the dedicated travel writer (pro or amateur).</p>
<p>So why the conflictual tone? Battle weariness after years of hosted trips by the big boys/girls of travel? Are we to pretend that small travel company vs. big travel writer doesn't exist as a possibility?</p>
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		<title>By: Hal</title>
		<link>http://www.travelblather.com/2009/12/a-free-holiday-or-a-job-with-no-salary.html/comment-page-1#comment-177</link>
		<dc:creator>Hal</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Dec 2009 21:45:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.travelblather.com/2009/12/a-free-holiday-or-a-job-with-no-salary.html#comment-177</guid>
		<description>&quot;Social media has enabled covert, manipulative promotional efforts to be revealed to the community - with the trial ultimately held in the court of public opinion; the penalties can potentially be severe.&quot;

When or where has that ever really happened?  Just curious.  Also, you need to flip that statement around a bit and you might also observe that social media is the new dynamic for possibly enabling &quot;covert, manipulative promotional efforts&quot; at least in the travel sphere we&#039;re discussing.  You can&#039;t ever know entirely what the terms were of the deal struck between a blogger and a tourism board, their pr rep, a CVB and a blogger or any two such parties.  Whereas you would know what the dynamic of the exchange is between a TB and a staff writer, or freelance journalist.  I was recently told of at least one such case where some woman is out there taking kickbacks from the PR firm for bringing additional guests to book into a certain small resort -- in addition to her comped trip, her comped daily rates, additional other direct moneys she made blogging about it on other sites.  So, poor starving and so very ethical-minded blogger?  Not really. According to one PR rep that I spoke with recently and who staged and accompanied a blogger&#039;s trip, one of these bloggers is &quot;very successful&quot; at what she does and is &quot;very opinionated&quot; (read, hates journalists and writers, and would never have gone on the trip if any of us had also been along).  Like anything, you can put social media to productive and beneficial uses in travel blogging, or it can be put to other uses that are just self-serving and dishonest.

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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>"Social media has enabled covert, manipulative promotional efforts to be revealed to the community - with the trial ultimately held in the court of public opinion; the penalties can potentially be severe."</p>
<p>When or where has that ever really happened?  Just curious.  Also, you need to flip that statement around a bit and you might also observe that social media is the new dynamic for possibly enabling "covert, manipulative promotional efforts" at least in the travel sphere we're discussing.  You can't ever know entirely what the terms were of the deal struck between a blogger and a tourism board, their pr rep, a CVB and a blogger or any two such parties.  Whereas you would know what the dynamic of the exchange is between a TB and a staff writer, or freelance journalist.  I was recently told of at least one such case where some woman is out there taking kickbacks from the PR firm for bringing additional guests to book into a certain small resort -- in addition to her comped trip, her comped daily rates, additional other direct moneys she made blogging about it on other sites.  So, poor starving and so very ethical-minded blogger?  Not really. According to one PR rep that I spoke with recently and who staged and accompanied a blogger's trip, one of these bloggers is "very successful" at what she does and is "very opinionated" (read, hates journalists and writers, and would never have gone on the trip if any of us had also been along).  Like anything, you can put social media to productive and beneficial uses in travel blogging, or it can be put to other uses that are just self-serving and dishonest.</p>
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		<title>By: Hal</title>
		<link>http://www.travelblather.com/2009/12/a-free-holiday-or-a-job-with-no-salary.html/comment-page-1#comment-176</link>
		<dc:creator>Hal</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Dec 2009 16:28:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.travelblather.com/2009/12/a-free-holiday-or-a-job-with-no-salary.html#comment-176</guid>
		<description>The NYT has in fact on at least two occasions I can think of, sent writers on press trips.  One was back around &#039;07 some time when a freelancer went down to Brazil, was on a flight that crashed into a commercial jet and survived to tell about it and rake in major bucks aside from his initial commission (and other freelance ones he&#039;d lined up).  The other is much more recently which I&#039;m surprised you feign ignorance of - to wit, the 125 some writers who went on a press trip to Jamaica that inaugurated a JetBlue flight down there from NYC, and which included two NYT writers.  Staff ones, on this occasion, if I&#039;m not mistaken.

As to the rest of what you claim to think and see about writers and journalists, you have about as much evidence as I have, but probably less since -- wait -- mine is actually based on fact and not just preconceived opinion?  There&#039;s not only more than one blogger who not only hates anyone calling themselves a writer or journalist, but I&#039;ve read more than one report from several sources about new media conferences and conventions where there are mind-blowing scenes demonstrating that even between &quot;bloggers&quot;, there are those who hate even other bloggers who are doing it for the money.  So I&#039;d say their their range of grudges towards both other media and even toward others working within their own media is rather monumental.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The NYT has in fact on at least two occasions I can think of, sent writers on press trips.  One was back around '07 some time when a freelancer went down to Brazil, was on a flight that crashed into a commercial jet and survived to tell about it and rake in major bucks aside from his initial commission (and other freelance ones he'd lined up).  The other is much more recently which I'm surprised you feign ignorance of - to wit, the 125 some writers who went on a press trip to Jamaica that inaugurated a JetBlue flight down there from NYC, and which included two NYT writers.  Staff ones, on this occasion, if I'm not mistaken.</p>
<p>As to the rest of what you claim to think and see about writers and journalists, you have about as much evidence as I have, but probably less since -- wait -- mine is actually based on fact and not just preconceived opinion?  There's not only more than one blogger who not only hates anyone calling themselves a writer or journalist, but I've read more than one report from several sources about new media conferences and conventions where there are mind-blowing scenes demonstrating that even between "bloggers", there are those who hate even other bloggers who are doing it for the money.  So I'd say their their range of grudges towards both other media and even toward others working within their own media is rather monumental.</p>
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